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Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:54 am
by admin
AYRS has received the following letter, which I'm posting here and inviting the sender to join the forum. Comments are welcome.
Your advice about a crazy idea.

I'm sending this email, as owing to a mistake on my part, I was planning to come to the London Area
meeting on Saturday to seek advice about a project I’d like to investigate. As it’s on Sunday
and I have a prior commitment I won’t be able to come along.

I’m contemplating making an entry in the Microtransat, autonomous division/ sailing vessel class.

I first came across your society after being given a set of books by a former member of my Yacht Club.
The subject of the book is self-steering and I couldn’t help but investigate it’s origin as it is a most unusual book.
I particularly like this kind of work as I’m a Yachtmaster and interested in technology.

My purpose in approaching your society is to seek your opinion as to whether you consider the idea
of building a vessel (max length 4m) propelled by wind power only and to send it on a mission to traverse the Atlantic
completely autonomously is feasible.

The response I am hoping to get is along the lines of
a) You’re completely mad
b) That’s a most intriguing idea, let’s talk!

I anticipate that it will require the following:
    Steering and Rig control,
    Power generation and management,
    Navigation, Communications and Collision avoidance systems (my area of interest as I’m an IT consultant)

There isn’t much I can think of that can be obtained off-the-shelf so it calls for some
innovative thinking from people who like a challenge and can come up with novel solutions.

There are a number of reasons why I am contemplating this project.
1) My granny taught me that ‘nothing is impossible if you put your mind to it’
2) No-one has succeeded so far, and quite a few have tried.
3) I want to do this before the French do!
oh yes, and my wife says I should follow my dream!

I hope that you might pass this email onto members of your society who may be interested
or at least willing to offer their feedback on this subject.

kind regards
Richard Walker
PS I work in Southwark but live in Bracknell.

Re: MicroTransat

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 8:26 pm
by Robert Biegler
My purpose in approaching your society is to seek your opinion as to whether you consider the idea
of building a vessel (max length 4m) propelled by wind power only and to send it on a mission to traverse the Atlantic completely autonomously is feasible.

I know it’s feasible for a moderately-sized team of professionals, because Saildrone ( went from California to Hawaii, and they report a total of 60000nm sailed so far. I have no idea whether technology has progressed to the point where a smaller team of amateurs, with a presumably far smaller budget, can achieve the same thing.

The response I am hoping to get is along the lines of
a) You’re completely mad
b) That’s a most intriguing idea, let’s talk!

How about c) are you mad enough to talk to me?
It occurred to me a while ago that a sailing tethered airship (an aerostat) would make a very nice ROV for offshore research. Stephane Rousson has put this into practice: I have two designs for paravanes that I think would be more reliable than the Costes design that Rousseau uses, but I don’t have comparative empirical data. I think Bernard Smith’s variation on the scheme, with a wing stuck on the belly of the aerostat, would be stable in altitude at least when analysing the static case. Even for that, though, I know just enough maths to realise that I can’t work out a closed form equation describing the feedback. I might have to take the brute force and ignorance approach and write a programme to model it, but doing that for a dynamic model is well beyond me. and I have an idea for another design that would need less modification of the aerostat, thus cutting down costs.

I did look into buying a small aerostat, with a payload of about 1kg, to test the platform with plain old radio control, but gave up when I found out how much the helium would cost. And when I searched for hydrogen, I only found stuff on hybrid cars, not on hydrogen suppliers.

If you were interested in that approach, there would be quite a lot of up front development. I doubt it could be done for this year, and I estimate costs in the range from £5000 to £20000. Control systems would come on top of that. My plan was to contact a company that makes aerostats to carry radar systems, mostly for the military, and see whether they are interested in branching out into something rather more civilian.

One advantage of this configuration, which is what makes it so interesting for research, is that you can put your sensor package 50m above the surface. Radar reflectors, AIS receivers and senders, cameras and so on would not be obscured by waves. So that, at least, would help in implementing collision avoidance as you would at least have a clear view.

Also, I have absolutely nothing to offer on the robotics side.


Robert Biegler

Re: MicroTransat

Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 12:54 pm
by Fredthecharlie
Microtransat some thoughts from the Thorpe Meeting
This subject was discussed at the meeting, but better preparation by providing delegates with the rules I think would have produced more ideas.
It was generally considered not to be a one man project because of the wide range of skills needed to complete the design, construction, testing and getting to the start line in a reasonable time, however as an arm chair exercise offering plenty of scope for thought and maybe searching for a like minded team and some sponsorship (maybe a Howard Fund application).
Last years competition seems to have lost competitors due to lack of communication; the rules requiring regular updates of position, at least one competitor was wrecked shortly after being released and another was caught by a fishing boat.
Reasons for communication failure include lack of power, poor aerials and electronic failure which could be due to mechanical or electrolytic damage.
Power needs to be generated and stored for when generation is reduced by prevailing conditions; PV only works during daylight and wind or movement systems when there is wind or waves.
One member of the audience suggested an all metal monohull including the sail, with a deep ballast keel on the grounds that it would withstand the prevailing conditions in the Atlantic and survive. Would it mask radio signals?
Generating electricity was discussed, PV cells, wind generation and using electrolysis (would the anode erode or the cathode foul?) were mentioned and since the meeting some form of pendulum mechanism comes to mind.
Propulsion using the wind was discussed and self tending wingsails mentioned, like most sailing rigs tacking to windward would make the algorithm for navigation more difficult but a rotor (windmill) rig would simplify things . More information on both these subjects can be found on an AYRS members personal web site
Keeping the Electronics dry absolutely essential as salt water corrodes and will cause short circuits so sealing of access hatches is essential as is sealing exposed wire where connections are made, some form of flexible diaphragm might protect sealed compartments from pressure fluctuations that might draw water in.
I wondered if a trimaran with a water filled ballast keel to allow recovery from knockdown using several wind mills to generate electricity and others to provide propulsion might be an option; several small ones keeping the centre of effort lower to reduce capsizing forces; or if the rules permit all to generate electricity and surplus electricity to drive propellers.

Re: MicroTransat

Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:47 pm
by Robert Biegler
Fredthecharlie wrote:I wondered if a trimaran with a water filled ballast keel to allow recovery from knockdown

Why water ballast? For a given weight, lead would give you a lower centre of gravity. The advantage of water ballast is the ability to dump it or take in more. That seems an unnecessary complication while underway, and the boats are small enough that it shouldn't be an issue for transport. Even if roof-topping, being able to take the keel off and keep it inside the car would seem an adequate solution.

Re: MicroTransat

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:12 am
by Fredthecharlie
My thought was that it would not increase the displacement but would provide a righting moment when the ballast bulb came out of the water, ie at about 80 degrees heel, it would increase imersed surface area however.

Re: MicroTransat

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 4:26 pm
by Robert Biegler
It would increase displacement, though. It doesn't matter to displacement whether you carry the weight in the form of water or something else. If you start thinking of a hull, then mentally add a water-filled keel, you don't need to make other alterations to the hull, and that can give the impression that you don't add displacement. But if you imagine adding a keel of the same shape and weight, filled with a small volume of lead and a larger volume of air, the lead feels more like added weight, yet the effect on displacement is the same. Only, you can get the weight lower down, and you have more freedom to distribute that displacement as you like, because you don't need much volume low down.

Re: MicroTransat

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:18 am
by Fredthecharlie
Thank you for your interpretation, I agree that the boat mass will be increased but hopefully its weight carrying ability shouldn't be affected; I think that having considered your thoughts a high density bulb and an enlarged volume of the immersed hull might be better it should certainly produce a smoother stability curve although my water ballast might produce a hump giving a manned boat a better chance of recovering

Re: MicroTransat

Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 2:18 pm
by mikehoward
Yes, I think you might be classed as mad BUT what an intriguing idea! The members of AYRS may well be classed as 'amateurs' but within the Society we hold a wealth of knowledge gained during our years of gainful employment. More importantly, most of this knowledge has been accumulated during the practical application of our chosen professions.

I am a retired Professional Design Engineer. During my career I have helped develop projects ranging from a Helideck for an Oil Production Platform to sophisticated equipment for the remediation of hydrocarbon contaminated products within an Oil Refinery setting. I have also a wealth of knowledge about marine equipment, composite materials and adapting standard equipment for bespoke operations.


Initially, we need a meeting of all interested parties to draw up a Design Specification based on the current or projected Rules of the Microtransat Competition.

Mike Howard

Re: MicroTransat

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:14 pm
by AlexQ23
I think that if you think to build a metal hull it's mainly to increase the impact resistance, isn't it? For you information there is a coating available called Line-X that can bring any object almost unbreakable. And this is not propaganda! It works for real. And there is some representative in UK. Try to found the video and how they treat an egg...It could be useful for your project.

Re: MicroTransat

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:22 pm
by mikehoward
Richard Walker, the originator of this blog, and myself, Mike Howard, have decided to mount a challenge in 2018.

Initially we are going to undertake a Feasibility Study in order to establish the design parameters for our vessel and its equipment.
I will be the Project Manager. I have already had brief discussions with several members in order to form a project team of 'experts' in the various fields outlined in Richard's original letter to the Society. Fellow members of the Society are welcome to participate by contacting me via this blog or by telephone or e-mail.

Once I have completed my 'hit list' of subjects worthy of investigation I will e-mail it to all interested parties. It will not appear in this blog as it is too public!

We hope to apply for a grant from the Howard Fund in the foreseeable future.

This is a splendid opportunity for us all to pool our resources and achieve the goal of being the first organisation to sail an autonomous vessel across the Atlantic Ocean.

Mike Howard.

Re: MicroTransat

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:04 pm
by Robert Biegler
If the sailing airship is one of the options you will consider, email me.

Re: MicroTransat

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:42 pm
by AlexQ23
Good decision! If I could help I will be more than happy to joint the team. Suggestion: when you get all size and dimension of the frame, why not propose to members a kind of design contest as a first draft or so? And after that you can decide where to go?

Re: MicroTransat

Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:10 am
by mikehoward
Hello Robert,

I do not envisage attempting to be too radical in our approach to designing a Microtransat Challenger, but I appreciate your response and offer. If you wish to see the initial brief I would be happy to send you a copy in due course. I am sure you experience would add greatly to our knowledge base.

Hello Alex,
Thank you for your offer to participate. I want to form a solid Project Team with as much diversity in the relevant areas under investigation as possible. I do not believe there is anything magical about designing and building a Microtransat Challenger other than paying minute attention to every aspect of the vessel's hull and equipment. In my opinion, previous challengers may well have been well equipped to perform autonomously only to be let down by the lack of forethought in preparing the hull and its appendages for the ravages of the open ocean.

Interested parties wishing to receive a copy of the Feasibility Study brief should contact me directly by e-mail at

Mike Howard

Re: MicroTransat

Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:34 pm
by fishwics
See also announcement of RIN meeting on autonomous boats here